Rachel Gerson:

I’m Rachel Gerson. This is the Tunnel of Truth podcast. We jokingly refer to the CT scanners as the tunnel of truth in radiology because they tell you all the answers. Dr. Joy Simmons’ career as a radiologist at Kaiser spans over 30 years. In addition to her impressive resume, she has helped open the door for dozens of other Black students in medicine.

Dr. Joy Simmons:

I got into radiology because while I was at Stanford, I had to work my way through school. And so I had a work study job that was at the Stanford Hospital working in the x-ray file room. As luck would have it, they had women radiologists residents in the program, and I was the chick that pulled the films back in the old days and had to deliver the films. And they had residents such as Anne Osborn, who’s now a major, major physician and neuroradiologist, and she was a resident at the time. I was able to see women in radiology, and there were some who were working locums, who had families. And I was like, “This is what I want to do.” I’ve always been a visual learner. I always had posters and artwork in my dorm room, so the whole visual thing of radiology was just perfect for me.

Rachel Gerson:

And was this when you were in undergrad?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

Yeah. This was when I was in undergrad at Stanford. This is in 1970. So for some of us, that was a first largish contingent of Black students coming on campus. We had an ethnic theme dorm for the Latino students, Asian students and the Black students. So we had this camaraderie of this group of students who would go through together. So of the 20 of us in my freshman dorm who were African American, there are about 15 to 18 of us who were in medicine in some shape, form or fashion. The dentists, physicians, epidemiologists, we all just marched through together as a cohort, so it was really a much more nurturing environment and experience. And at that time, we started the Black Pre-Med Society at Stanford. So it was, again, getting this group of students to be supportive in a university that, for some of us, was a very different place. I went to an all-Black high school in Los Angeles, Crenshaw High School, and so going to a place like Stanford was very different.

Rachel Gerson:

Were there challenges there?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

If you are a bright student in your high school, you think, okay. I’m good. But then you don’t realize what else is out there. So when I got to Stanford and there was the opportunity because after 1968, the Black students demanded that you have more supportive environment for students of color on Stanford’s campus and that’s what they did, my dorm was the first experiment, if you will, of having a living situation where you had more than just a couple of Black students here and a couple over there and a couple over there. And you had this cadre. And we were already selected out as being pre-med, so that also helped us all get together. And our faculty advisor at the dorm, the resident faculty, was Dr. Bill Dement, who was the father of Sleep and Dreams. And so he really nurtured us and supported us in our dreams to become physicians.

So having that kind of environment as an undergraduate was really very supportive. It really got us through. Even though we had to work very hard, it was a very different environment. It was much more competitive. But I think with having this cadre of we’re going to get through this really allowed us to flourish. And here we are 50 years out, and my buddies and stuff from freshman dorm are still practicing, just starting to retire. So it was good.

Rachel Gerson:

And then you went to UCLA, and what did you encounter there?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

At UCLA, one of the first things they told us is that if you look to your left or you look to your right, somebody is not going to be there by the time you graduate in four years. I’m like, what? That was like, really? I didn’t get that. And at the time when we came in, there were only 18 women in my class of 150, and there were only six Black people in the class and maybe 12 to 15 Latino students in the class. So we bonded together and made sure we all got through. We all sat together. We all worked it out. And one of the other women in my class dropped out, so there was a time when I was the only Black woman in my class. So that was a little hectic. But again, I think the support of everyone bonding together and really just ignoring all the other noise just to focus, I think, really allowed me to survive and thrive.

Rachel Gerson:

When you were on the wards as a med student or in the radiology department, did you encounter any challenges there or resistance as a Black woman?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

Not in radiology. I think I was very fortunate that one of my mentors, Dr. James Collins, he interviewed me for medical school. He put me through my paces. It was strict. But I knew I didn’t want to train there, but for medical school, I knew he was going to make sure that I knew my stuff and I was going to get through. I think some of the other surgical services, yeah, the older guys were calling us doctorettes. It was that kind of thing. But again, I think the other women and I, we just put our head down and kept it pushing, I think. We understood that there weren’t that many women in medicine at UCLA ahead of us. I think if you were to look at the graduation pictures that we’d have along the wall, I’m probably the 10th Black woman to ever graduate from UCLA School of Medicine. We probably didn’t understand just how the numbers of women in medicine would explode just in the few classes behind us. Then, there were 18 of us, and then there were 35 in the next class. And now, it’s like half the class is women. I don’t think we ever would’ve thought that when we were going through. Medicine just wasn’t that kind of place. You just got through it.

Rachel Gerson:

Did you feel like you had to work harder or prove yourself more?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

I felt I had to as a Black woman, yes. I think having Stanford behind me gave me points. Therefore, they really didn’t jam me up as they probably could have or would if I didn’t have that.
Rachel Gerson:

When you applied to and started looking at programs in radiology, what were you looking for? How was that application process, and what was the transition like into being a resident?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

At the time I applied, I was already engaged to be married and my husband-to-be was a pediatric resident at UCLA, so I knew I wanted to stay in the LA area. It really was my village. My parents, family, church, everything was here in Southern California, so we are going to be in Southern California. And being a resident, again, I was the only woman resident at the time in my class. Okay, sot here was one ahead of me and maybe one ahead, so there might have been two other women ahead of me. And then after, a couple other women started coming behind me. So again, I was the first Black woman to come through the program at Harbor-UCLA. And at the time, I was the first one to have a child during my senior year of residency.

Rachel Gerson:

And how did that go?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

I got the side eye. That’s for sure, but they didn’t quite know what to do because no one had ever done it before. And so I didn’t ask permission or say anything. I was married for two years. You get pregnant, get next kid in two years. It was a program. I was on a program. So they said, “Okay. They’ll make a combination.” So I did radiology for four months or something like that, whatever I did not to have to be in any radiation. I took call everyone else. I took call up until a week before my kid was due, my daughter, who’s now 41. And I saved up all my vacation and sick leave because they really didn’t have quite a formalized policy as to what happens. And I knew I didn’t want to lose step in with my classmates and cohort in going to take boards and all that other jazz.

So basically, I had my daughter at the end of my junior year. She was born in May, and then you had to start studying for your writtens. So you had your writtens in the fall, so then it was crazy. And then at that time, back in those days, you took your orals at the end of your senior year, your fourth year. So I don’t remember what the child did. I didn’t breastfeed, so she grew. But thank God my husband was a pediatrician, so it was his job. Okay, handle it. Make sure she’s alive, got her shots. Do that, brother. Handle it. So I had to focus to take my boards and get through it.

Rachel Gerson:

Were your fellow residents supportive of you having that, taking a chunk of time off altogether, of you having a child during that time?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

They were very supportive because, again, these guys, they were also either getting married or starting their family, so they understood. And I only took off seven weeks, so that’s really your vacation time and a few weeks of sick leave. Really, it was really short and fast, and I came back in and started working, like I said. And I took call all up until about a week before she was born. I didn’t take off, I took off May 1st. She was born on May 9th. So I was good.

Rachel Gerson:

Blazing the trail for the people coming behind you.

Dr. Joy Simmons:

You don’t know what you don’t know, and you just said, “But this is what I want to do, and I’m going to have to make it happen,” and try not to make as many waves so that I don’t mess it up for anybody coming behind me because at that time… So by the time I got to my third year, there were a couple women behind me in residency and internship in the radiology program. So I knew I had people looking at me.

Rachel Gerson:

I wonder how long it took for them to have a policy.

Dr. Joy Simmons:

I know that several years later, I guess they had more women, and there was a lot more drama about people taking time off and not wanting radiation. So they really had to get something together, but they didn’t have to do it on my account because I just took the same vacation, the same thing as everybody else. I just packed it all in, saved it all up.

Rachel Gerson:

Right, right. That must have been hard to have just that short amount of time and then have to go back to work with no vacation after that.

Dr. Joy Simmons:

Yeah, it was pretty challenging. But again, it’s one of those things that there wasn’t the concern about the spiritual, social, whatever of residents. Bottom line is we had to do it; you have to do it. And so that was the ethos of all the programs. And you knew that coming into the game, so you had to make it work to do it, like the guys ahead of you. So understanding that and understanding that I was stepping out of the box to be able to pursue the life that I wanted, then I just said, “Okay, I’d work within the lines still doing what I want to do.”

Rachel Gerson:

Did you encounter any resistance with attendings, with other clinicians or with patients in your role as the first Black woman resident they’d had?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

No, I think they were all quite curious. I remember some of the more senior guys was, “Oh, Dr. Simmons, what made you go into it?” Everyone was so amazed at this regular Black chick. I am who I am, and I was then. Was pursuing my dream. These guys were like, “Wait a minute, why?” I just said, “Because this resonates with me, and I could see this.” When I was doing pediatrics and I really had a wonderful time and thought about it for a minute. But when the kids are crying, the mom is crying, I’m crying, it was just not a good look. So I just said, “I can’t do this patient contact thing.” And in those days, radiologists had a lot less interaction with patients than we do now. That’s been a big evolution in our practice.

We were behind the screens, behind the things. We were the consultant period. And so unless you were doing GIs, unless you were doing the angios and things like that, you really didn’t have much interaction. Yes. Mammography. Yes. And I think that was one of the areas that as soon as I could give it up as a partner, I gave it up because of that. They’re crying. I’m crying. It’s like I’m fighting with the surgeons. No, the scar should be here, but we want you to localize it here. And I’m like, “But no, you’re going to make an ugly scar.”

Rachel Gerson:

There you were advocating for your women patients. When you said that some of the radiology attendings would ask you why radiology, do you mean they thought why medicine or why radiology, like they would’ve pictured you in a different specialty?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

I was just a curiosity because, again, there weren’t any other Black women in radiology, and so they didn’t know what to expect. First, I had really short hair. I cut my hair all off when I was my senior year, and it was a whole thing. And I was pretty gregarious and just had a grand time. And these are very quiet guys. Those are radiologists back in the day. So I guess they were looking at, why is this person doing it? But they never said that. You could tell they were trying to figure it out. The most challenging part was when I was a fellow in CT and ultrasound and I was looking for a job. Then reality hit, and it’s like there are no other Black women in private practice. And so that part was the most stressful part, that coming to the realization, and that’s when it really hit me, that those opportunities weren’t as viable as I might have thought they were.

Rachel Gerson:

Were there specific instances of conversations, interviews that made you come to that conclusion?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

No, I think that the ethos in the world were that the guys were getting these jobs and these opportunities. There were a couple other women radiology residents around the city at the time that I was coming through, and I was looking at the fellows that were at UCLA. Again, they were making it clear that the private practice opportunities just weren’t there. I don’t think I even interviewed at a private practice. That was maybe me being self-protective. I was paranoid enough that I felt that some of these private practice groups were or could be a lot more capricious in that if they had a son coming through and wanted to join the practice, who would be out? The Black girl. So I’m like, mm, no, I don’t need to do all of that. So once I started to look for jobs and it was looking crazy, I foolishly went to these interviews pregnant with my second child. They were like, really? But I ended up having my second daughter in March of 1983.

Rachel Gerson:

During your fellowship year?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

I was doing my fellowship, yeah. So that time, I only took off four weeks because I had to keep on the grind, just had to keep things moving. I didn’t want to be delayed. No, no, no, I just had to do it. So luckily, Kaiser Permanente called me, and I said, “I’ll be there. Just give me 10 days. I’ll be there.” And so at the appointed time, which is, like I said, less than two weeks later, I went for my interview at Kaiser Permanente. So I’m sitting there, and I found a suit to cover up the boobies.

Rachel Gerson:

Two weeks postpartum.

Dr. Joy Simmons:

Yeah, I was trying to cover up all of this. And so the interviewer, the radiologist asked me… Like I said, this is 1983 where there’s a whole lot of… So he asked me, “Well, do you have kids?” And I said, “Yes.” And he said, “Well, how old are they?” And I said, “They’re preschool.” And so he said, “Well, how preschool is preschool?” And so I said, “Well, one is two years old, and the other one is 10 days old.” And I said, “I want this job,” and I got the job. And so I started in 1983, and technically, I retired at the end of 2018.

Rachel Gerson:

Well, congratulations on retiring in a long career.

Dr. Joy Simmons:

Yes.

Rachel Gerson:

You said that you just had to keep going. Why did you feel that way?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

And even when I talked to my undergraduate classmates, the majority girls, going to Stanford at that time was a big deal. And everyone had expectations that you were going to do well and you were going to go on the path. So it’s was always the gap year. Who did that? No, because there were expectations, we didn’t have the opportunity to find ourselves or do a lot of the creative. These children now have the opportunity to go into film and do artistic. No, you had to get it done. The joke used to be that 9 out of 10 girls in California were beautiful, and the 10th one went to Stanford or something like that. So you just had this always little chip that you had to produce, perform, do it. And for my parents and other Black parents who were putting their stock in these children that they have now put in these positions opportunities that they never had, you had to do. I always thought there was only one piece of paper that said, “Dr. Virginia Joy Simmons,” and I was not going to let anyone take that piece of paper away from me. Even in med school, we were all pretty driven. We knew people were watching us as women early in this training of women physicians, and we all felt, I think, that we had to do well.

Rachel Gerson:

So two other things I wanted to ask you about that we haven’t talked about. One is how you both just view the evolution of radiology with regards to its openness to women and people of color and also your own involvement in mentoring.

Dr. Joy Simmons:

My involvement with mentoring has been in two ways. One, I was very involved in, still very involved with, Stanford University and the undergraduate admissions. That’s the space I wanted to be in. I wanted to ensure that other Black and Brown students from Los Angeles got the opportunity to go to a place like Stanford if they had the capacity and the drive, and so I’ve been very involved in that for 40 years. With women in medicine, I was president and still are pretty involved with the Association of Black Women Physicians. At the time, that started in 1983-ish, and again, now we’re starting to get a cadre of other Black women who were in pediatrics. There weren’t that many, me a couple others in radiology, but they’re younger than I am. But we were all starting to get together to talk about the challenges of, is it private practice? What happens with our families? How do we get husbands and navigate this whole thing? So I was very and still pretty involved with that as far as mentoring women who are in medicine and trying to navigate that space.

Rachel Gerson:

Tell me about how your own leadership role has evolved over the years.

Dr. Joy Simmons:

Oh, it’s definitely evolved, but again, in the beginning, and I was one of the few, I didn’t want to be… I had two kids. I was ready to do my thing. I was able to participate at Stanford in the highest levels of leadership there, and so that’s where my path was as compared to the radiology path, if you will. And I didn’t have the bandwidth to try to do both. And I’m still involved with the National Medical Association and the section on radiology and radiation oncology, so that’s the Black radiologists and radiation oncologists around the country. And we’ve been like a family. We all grew up together in this, and so it’s fun to go back every year and see everybody, see the new crop of people who are coming in. I was one of the ones that really could speak to the HMO practice perspective, and that’s how I participate.

Rachel Gerson:

As the overall number of women in medicine has grown over the years, have you also seen an increase in the number of women of color going into radiology?

Dr. Joy Simmons:

Well, it’s interesting and exciting to see so many younger women getting involved, not only becoming radiologists, but there’s still a tiny number. That pipeline is still very, very slim. And I think about and we talk about it a lot as to why that is, if there is still this bias that you have to be at the top 5% of your class to be able to be a good radiologist or not, what programs that opens up for you or not. So that’s still a challenge, and I think the numbers have borne that out, that there are still a good number of people going into medicine, but the number of people going into radiology and the people of color going into radiology has not grown that substantially. So I think we just have to expose people to what the possibilities are and especially what the practice possibilities are.

I think if all they think is they have to go into academic radiology and they don’t see private practice and they don’t see HMO practices, then they’re going to have a pretty skewed view of what radiology and what a life can be. And I think for me particularly, I tried to share with people that radiology, though it was my career, it really fueled my passion, be it my work at Stanford with undergraduates and the university there and to my passion for collecting art. I have been a pretty prominent collector for many years, and that’s my passion. Radiology fuels my passion. So if you look at it, that is not a slog, a grind, but it is fun. And it allows you the opportunity, it allows you the space to be able to have that life. Private practice may not allow that kind of freedom.

When I first started at Kaiser and as well as a lot of other practices, you couldn’t split a practice with someone else. Now women can say, “You got this half. I got this half, and we’ll put together a whole FTE,” whatever. And that’s how we can do our practice, and we can have a life that. Wasn’t an option when I came through. You had to work full time to be able to make partner in X amount of years and do whatever. And so I think for us to be able to grow radiology, I think we have to show that flexibility and the opportunities and what it allows you to do and how people do have a life and families and all of that, to keep people interested to say, “You know what? This is something I could do.”

Rachel Gerson:

Tunnel of Truth is partially funded by the Washington State Radiological Society’s Committee on Women and Diversity. We are also a proud recipient of a 2022 American College of Radiology chapter grant. If you’d like to share your story on this podcast, visit our website, tunneloftruth.com. These stories can be difficult to tell. We create a comfortable recording environment and can keep your identity private should you wish to maintain anonymity.